This Week in Panels: Week 23
February 28th, 2010 by Gavok | Tags: baron von strucker, Batman, blackest night, captain america, daken, darkstalkers, deadpool, irredeemable, knight, mr x, nuke, oz, panels, spider-man, squireTime for another go at trying to portray the comics we’ve read in one singular panel. I was asked to go with the last page of Secret Warriors, which is great in its own right, but a little too weird out of context.
Amazing Spider-Man #622
Fred Van Lente, Joe Quinones, Greg Weisman and Luke Ross
Batman and Robin #9
Grant Morrison and Cameron Stewart
Blackest Night #7
Geoff Johns and Ivan Reis
Dark Wolverine #83
Daniel Way, Marjorie Liu and Giuseppe Camuncoli
Darkstalkers: The Night Warriors #1
Ken Siu-Chong, Eric Vedder and Joe Vriens
Deadpool #20
Daniel Way and Carlo Barberi
Irredeemable #11
Mark Waid, Peter Krause and Diego Barreto
Marvelous Land of Oz #4
Eric Shanower and Skottie Young
New Avengers #62
Brian Michael Bendis, Stuart Immonen and Daniel Acuna
Secret Warriors #13
Jonathan Hickman and Stefano Caselli
Spider-Man: The Clone Saga #6
Tom DeFalco, Howard Mackie and Todd Nauck
Thunderbolts #141
Jeff Parker and Miguel Sepulveda
I apologize for being almost completely non-existent on this site for the last month and a half. In actuality, I’ve been working on a big article series that will start on March 17th and go on for twelve days. Once that’s done, it’ll be back to business as usual. In the meantime, accept this as a token of my apology.
And yeah, I’m reading Darkstalkers. What of it?
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Yeah that would be my pick for BN #7
Is it me, or does that Dark Wolverine panel seem like it has just a touch of JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure to it?
@HitTheTargets: I can see that. Mainly from the unnatural body angles.
Oh god. That video… terrifying. Especially since they must have commissioned the song/video at some point.
Heh, Deadpool. Loved the sequence that followed up that panel. Great choice for a single-shot summery.
Oh hey about DarkStalkers: Gav, did you ever think maybe a “Marvel Horror vs. Darkstalkers” game would have been pretty awesome way back in the day? Like with Ghost Rider, Blade and Man-Thing?
Is it just me, or is Ken Siu-Chong one of the worst writers working in comics today? Like, Ron Marz would say, “Jesus CHRIST, this guy is boring”
@HitTheTargets: Fates do look Standesque…
Also I don’t follow US release, are they STILL on Jotaro’s story?
Oh I wish Daniel Way would stop ruining Deadpool…
@Dan Coyle: I don’t think he’s so bad. The Street Fighter stuff was pretty dry for a while, but that’s more because it has like 50 characters and there were tons of delays. The Turbo series has been pretty good so far, mainly because everything’s finally coming to a head.
Darkstalkers never had a chance. The characters have less cohesion than the cast of Street Fighter and it only had six issues. I’m seeing if this new miniseries goes anywhere.
@Capo Del Bandito: Daniel Way is the best Deadpool writer since Joe Kelly.
I’ve waited a very, VERY long time for Darkstalkers to pick back up. I was in high school when it last came out, and now I’m in grad school. It really puts this in perspective.
Gavok, that sentence only makes since if “since Joe Kelly” means that issue of ASM a few months back.
I’ve been enjoying Way’s run but c’mon. Exhibit A: Gail Simone. Exhibit B: Fabian Nicieza.
@clay: Maybe Gail Simone. MAYBE. But Fabian Nicieza, as much as I liked Cable/Deadpool, made a lot of missteps. Everything involving Deadpool appeared to be either Cable-related (ie. let’s introduce Deadpool to Apocalypse!), a retread of something Kelly or Simone did or introducing Bob from Hydra.
@Gavok:
Not in the least. He’s relying on gimmicks instead of storytelling, and the jokes and overall plot are shallow and cheap. He’s doing nothing for the character, not developing him in the least. Just out of character behavior and silly humor for the sake of pleasing easily entertained types.
I disagree. He is developing Deadpool, going in the direction Joe Kelly was working with, but slightly different. Deadpool is again trying to do the hero thing, but now he’s too well known to simply be a superhero. The world knows him as the traitor who wanted to help out the Skrulls, so now he has to not only do good, but publicly use his “villain” status to his advantage. Like when he helped out the X-Men.
As for Hit-Monkey? Hey, look at that! Deadpool might end up having a recurring antagonist for once. He hasn’t had one since, what, Black Swan?
@Gavok:
It’s shallow plotlines, no development of the character itself because he’s rehashing old ideas (I want to be a hero!) but this time around he’s doing it in a psychotic manner. Just gimmicks, cheap jokes and really pathetic writing that pretty much goes for little to no development because all we’re seeing is Deadpool bouncing from crossover to crossover, with no internal workings other than his ‘voices’ (which are horrible all together especially since the best explanation we get is ‘he’s crazy now!’) and tossing random shit together.
With Kelly, and even Simone’s Deadpool we saw a character dealing with issues, etc. With Way’s, we get wacky hijinks and weird as hell behavior that’s supposed to appear funny, but is mostly just Peter Griffin in a Deadpool suit.
Oh as for Hit-Monkey: I’m willing to bet it’ll be revealed Pool hired Hit-Monkey so he could get close to Spider-Man.
Also: Could I get a list of any real ‘character development’?
All I’m seeing is Deadpool bouncing from crossover to crossover as I mentioned, and no real change in his attitude, just quick jokes and stupidity when interacting with other heroes/villains.
Haven’t seen anything in regards to his behavior, thoughts, beliefs/etc. Just goofiness.
But of course, I have high standards and, you know, enjoy a plot instead of focusing on events/crossovers.
@Capo Del Bandito: Also: Could I get a list of any real ‘character development’?
All I’m seeing is Deadpool bouncing from crossover to crossover as I mentioned, and no real change in his attitude, just quick jokes and stupidity when interacting with other heroes/villains.
Haven’t seen anything in regards to his behavior, thoughts, beliefs/etc. Just goofiness.
A fair question. Let’s look at Way’s Deadpool stories.
Wolverine Origins: Deadpool goes after Wolverine and goes into how he feels about him. Deadpool sees Wolverine as his abusive father and is outraged that this guy who has everything Deadpool’s always wanted would throw it away for petty revenge.
Secret Invasion arc: Simple introductory arc and crossover, actually fitting into the climax of the event. Is there more to set up his feud with Norman Osborn.
The zombie thing: Nothing more than a wacky adventure with Deadpool trying to get money.
Tiger Shark and the Thunderbolts: Mainly there to build up the Osborn feud.
Bullseye: Temporarily puts to rest the Osborn storyline while bringing forth two developments. One, gives the final word on the Deadpool/Bullseye relationship, which has ranged from bitter rivals to friendly kin over the years. Despite all the attempts on each other’s life, Lester and Wade are friends who understand and respect each other. Two, Deadpool — who has spent the last year of comics trying to get rich — is finally richer beyond his wildest dreams. What good is a merc with a mouth when there’s no more need for money?
Pirates: Most of it is to be a wacky adventure, which is a natural progression from giving Deadpool more money than he knows what to do with. It ends with him noting how nice it is to do good. This has a transitional issue that goes into the X-Men story…
X-Men: In a scene that appears to be homage to Sea Guy, Deadpool goes delusional and talks to a dead shark that judges him. Deadpool thinks back to trying to be a hero and why it didn’t work. We see a new road block for him that wasn’t there during the Kelly/Simone/Nicieza days. Deadpool is a traitor to the human race.
At least, that’s what Osborn has the public believing. Deadpool is on camera when he joins the Skrull side from issue #1 and the footage has made it to the media. Most people who recognize Deadpool know him as the guy who wanted to sell out humanity for the Skrulls. A guy like that can’t publicly be a superhero. A guy like that doesn’t get to join the X-Men.
But he tries anyway and they begrudgingly almost accept it. All the events of the story are part of Deadpool’s master plan to help the X-Men. Not by being a member of the team, but by being their enemy. He uses himself and his false reputation as a fall guy and does a ton of good for the X-Men’s PR. At the same time, he finally gets a real win over Osborn.
Spider-Man/Hit-Monkey: Hard to really call this one since it isn’t over yet, but Hit-Monkey represents the horrors of Deadpool’s past, so it’s likely it’ll have something to do with that.
@Gavok:
There was a touch upon it in the Origins arc, true, but only touched upon. Then glazed over with the Daken crap.
So the first 15 or so issues, nothing but filler. The bullseye/deadpool stuff we already knew because of their previous interactions and was handled supremely better back in Kelly’s run. This was just sorta them going back and forth and climaxed with a goofy ass ‘meat suit’ which simple minded people enjoyed. Sorry, but that’s all it was, a random ‘waaaaacky’! joke.
The Pirate issues were prime examples of Way not knowing how to handle Deadpool. And would’ve been better if he *had* approached the fact that Deadpool was very jack Sparrow-esce in his mannerisms: Seemingly eccentric and off but still damn capable. In Way’s hands, he’s a capable but psychotic and almost retarded levels of ignorance.
The X-Men stuff was convoluted and messy because he started out wanting to be a hero, but at the same time, if you believe Way’s gimmick of “I’ve always got a waaaacky plan that will work out in the end”, he planned from the start to sabotage his reputation further. Which makes no sense because he wanted to be a hero, but then he’s ok with being a hero if only the x-men know about it but can’t publicly acknowledge him? And now he wants to learn how to be a better hero from Spider-Man? What good will that do him if not only is he seen as a traitor to the human race, but he attempted to murder (thought he public doesn’t know it was faked) a lacky of Osborn’s) someone on camera.
It’s backwards as hell and makes no sense.
So the first 15 or so issues were build up/filler for the most part. No character progression, no dealing with any of his past (thank god he didn’t try to muddy up the already fucked up origin) nor attempts at progressing the character.
It’s as I said: rehashing old ideas, with shallow cheap jokes to appease a wider range of people. He’s writing him ‘with no rules’ and making him act out of character and psychotic (despite his never having been psychotic, even with Nicezia’s fucking up with the character’s behavior/powers), and throws in really really bland and boring stuff and he’s *extremely* lacking in the pop culture references Deadpool is known for.
And I stand by my assessment that it will be revealed Hit-Monkey (a *really* retarded creation, a Splinter ripoff in monkey form, based off an internet meme no less) has been hired by Pool, so he can get close to Spider-Man, who himself is acting out of character and isn’t even being written with properly working powers (his spider-sense should’ve picked up the fact that Hit-Monkey was following him).
Just like with Ghost Rider, the man throws behavior/established ideas to the wind and says “here’s cheap action/humor and fuck all that thought and development stuff”.
@Capo Del Bandito:
There was a touch upon it in the Origins arc, true, but only touched upon. Then glazed over with the Daken crap.
If by “a touch upon it” you mean “a whole issue dedicated to it”, then yeah.
So the first 15 or so issues, nothing but filler. The bullseye/deadpool stuff we already knew because of their previous interactions and was handled supremely better back in Kelly’s run.
I never said Way handled the character better than Kelly, so that point’s moot. Besides, Kelly’s take on the relationship had them start as evil friends and they turned to enemies once Deadpool started his change of heart. Whether they’re friends or enemies depended on the following writers and Way finally brings it all together: even when they try to kill each other for the sake of making bank, at the end of the day they still see eye to eye. Closure.
This was just sorta them going back and forth and climaxed with a goofy ass ‘meat suit’ which simple minded people enjoyed. Sorry, but that’s all it was, a random ‘waaaaacky’! joke.
I can say this about pretty much any Deadpool joke, can’t I? Shoryuken! Peanut sex! Chimichangas!
And it wasn’t just a random joke. It 1) protected him from Bullseye’s arrows and 2) pointed out how like-minded he and Lester are via his similar flashback and his admitted approval at the end of the arc.
The Pirate issues were prime examples of Way not knowing how to handle Deadpool. And would’ve been better if he *had* approached the fact that Deadpool was very jack Sparrow-esce in his mannerisms: Seemingly eccentric and off but still damn capable. In Way’s hands, he’s a capable but psychotic and almost retarded levels of ignorance.
I thought the pirate issues were kind of dull, but I don’t think Deadpool was written wrong. He was having fun being a goofy tard pirate until his ship was stolen and he put his game face on. From there he had almost everything under control. Perhaps even too much. He defeated the villain, passed out from blood loss and then defeated him again. If anything, the problem is how tame the evil pirates came off as.
The X-Men stuff was convoluted and messy because he started out wanting to be a hero, but at the same time, if you believe Way’s gimmick of “I’ve always got a waaaacky plan that will work out in the end”, he planned from the start to sabotage his reputation further. Which makes no sense because he wanted to be a hero, but then he’s ok with being a hero if only the x-men know about it but can’t publicly acknowledge him?
Yes. That’s exactly the point. He’s not there for the hero status, he’s there to BE A HERO. He’s sacrificing his reputation (not to mention his dream of wanting to be an X-Man) for the betterment of the entire X-Men team and mutant/human relations. They look better having “thwarted” him than they ever would have with him as a member of the team.
It’s not much different from Booster Gold turning himself into a living joke and then faking his own death in order to protect time and space. It could even be compared to Batman at the end of Dark Knight, only completely premeditated. There’s a lot more to being a hero than putting on tights and risking your life.
And now he wants to learn how to be a better hero from Spider-Man? What good will that do him if not only is he seen as a traitor to the human race, but he attempted to murder (thought he public doesn’t know it was faked) a lacky of Osborn’s) someone on camera.
It’s backwards as hell and makes no sense.
We’re talking about the same Spider-Man, right? The menace? The man connected with the deaths of Captain Stacy and his daughter? The man who isn’t honest enough to show his face? The man who appears to be in cahoots with Doctor Octopus and the Sandman and just about any other villain he’s seen in public with? The traitor to his country? The terrorist who opposes the government messiah Norman Osborn?
A few months ago, Spider-Man saved the lives of several people who immediately yelled at Iron Patriot to kick Spider-Man’s sorry traitorous ass. For almost his entire superhero career, Spider-Man has been known as a menace and wanted by the police, but yet he still perseveres. Being a hero has nothing to do with how the public perceives you, but by your actions. Yes, I’d say in his current predicament, Deadpool could learn a lot from him.
So the first 15 or so issues were build up/filler for the most part. No character progression, no dealing with any of his past (thank god he didn’t try to muddy up the already fucked up origin) nor attempts at progressing the character.
Dealing with his past? He’s met up with Bullseye and Taskmaster and Bob. He reflected on his relationships with Blind Al and Weasel. Unless you want him to deal with Weapon X again or hang out with Siryn for an issue, I don’t know what else to tell you. Most everyone involved with his past is dead and a lot of his issues have been put to rest.
He’s writing him ‘with no rules’ and making him act out of character and psychotic (despite his never having been psychotic, even with Nicezia’s fucking up with the character’s behavior/powers),
They’ve both written him as psychotic and in Kelly’s case even delusional. I think your beef is more with his mental dialogue, which I can understand, but to each his own. In the end, we just might have to hit the “agree to disagree” button.
@Gavok:
Just a quick note, for both you, and Way seriously needs it, and anyone else, there is a severe difference between the mental states he had from Kelly/Priest/even Scallia/Simone, most of Nicezia’s and then Way’s.
He had Anti-Social Personality Disorder obviously, but for the most part he was manic-depressive/bipolar.
Noe he’s being written as outright psychotic, which is loss of touch with reality, etc. In Kelly’s arc he snapped for a moment, but dealt with it.
Way’s ‘progression/spin’ on the character is he’s outright psychotic for no reason other than to be funny/give him more stuff to play with because he’s not creative enough to come up with something that requires effort. Falling back on ‘he’s psychotic, he can now see things/hear voices/do off the wall shit’.
Way didn’t really *do* anything with the Bullseye/Deadpool relationship. He was apprehensive about killing him (and i still dislike how the teleporter somehow disappeared and was gotten rid of, even though it was never stated that he stopped off to give it to normal, then took Deadpool to a slaughter house) and then they fought. There was no real development. T here was them going back and forth and back where they started: Respectful of each other’s abilities and even a mild friendship, but they were willing to kill each other for the job. There was no new ground, no coming back around, it was recycled stuff.
Deadpool’s jokes/humor usually made sense, up until bits of Simone and then completely in Nicezia’s alteration of the character. Now he’s akin to Peter Griffen in that he makes random statements/does random things that make no sense but that are just so out of place that they’re supposed to be construed as funny.
The ‘i want that boat’ gag was completely stupid and again, was to show that Deadpool has a varying level of stupidity depending on how funny the writer wants the joke to be.
The whole idea of Deadpool wanting to be a hero though is, as the arc stated: I want you to want me. It’s his desire to feel apart of something. He’s not doing it to be a bigger part of the world, to help mankind. He wants to be needed. And in one fell swoop, he helped the x-men, but they pushed him away because they had to. Again, retarded because it did nothing for the character, didn’t develop him any, unless of course Way is planning on altering the character even more and making him want to be just a hero, blah blah blah, in which case would alter the very idea of a ‘merc’.
What is he trying to ‘learn’ from spider-man? Besides Spider-Man acting out of character and having his powers randomly work when the story calls for it, what is the overall goal?
And how did he ‘deal with his past? He didn’t learn anything, he didn’t do anything but have his former cast people show up. Having them guest star for an issue or two doesn’t really make for ‘dealing with his past’.
Way is relying on macguffin’s to move Deadpool from place to place, but not really doing anything with the character. He uses those little plot devices (revenge/money/hero complex) to move him from crossover to crossover, with very little meat. Dragging out issues with very little to them. Little dialog, little action, they’re a quick breeze to read.
Instead of a plot, a story, an goal in mind, he’s using whatever little device/gimmick to have Deadpool randomly appear in the crossovers. I don’t mind crossovers, but just throwing him in randomly when it doesn’t make sense (because the plans to kill a skrull queen just happen to be on that skrull ship and Deadpool could get them? What?) or to simply have Deadpool appear loony, he’s not DOING anything with Deadpool.
Deadpool sacrificed himself, but it was a backwards sacrifice which goes against what he is: attention hungry to some degree, but at the same time a ‘screw the world when it serves my purpose’ kinda guy. Capable but off the wall to a degree, but he was never psychotic.
He didn’t learn/do expound on anything with Bullseye. There was no new ground covered, nothing resolute, and nothing but to get Deadpool away from Norman’s eyes and move him on to the next filler until the next big event crossover could coincide with the montly.
He’s using old ideas, old things, and doing nothing with the character.
Ask anyone with any real literary training. Describe to them, with non-fanboy eyes, that the story is revolving around being pushed from place to place, but there is no real resolution, just pushing the character to the next chapter.
I’m not of course, asking for each arc to wrap up the series, but to have SOMETHING besides pushing the character into the next big thing. And to tell a story that’s not dragged out (with the exception of the Thunderbolts crossover, that was actually a decent story) and just tossed in there.
His goals are left vague, his jokes are for the simple minded, and the characterization of ‘manic to suddenly psychotic’ is a crutch for someone who can’t add their own spin to a character without relying on a grab bag of mental illness. It is bad writing.
I’ll concede on the difference of mental states, since I’m not an expert on the topic, but at the same time, I personally like the idea of Deadpool occasionally losing touch with reality. It hits me as fitting for a mass murderer whose main interaction with the public is watching the same TV shows that they do.
The voices in the head can get tiresome (though more in Merc with a Mouth than the core series), but I recognize it as a device to have Deadpool talk with someone when he spends most of his adventures solo. It at least pays off when people react to him talking out loud, like Spider-Man beating him down a couple issues ago.
Pool-o-Vision, I can definitely do without and it seems not only do a lot of people agree, but Marvel’s listening. Either they’re cutting down on it extensively or they’re getting rid of it as a whole. The last time it’s been used in any Deadpool comic is the Ghost Riders issue of Team-Up, I believe. I still think there have been times it’s worked well, like in Origins and in Suicide Kings, though that last one wasn’t Way.
With his past, there really isn’t much you can do with it anymore. Most of his supporting cast has had closure, other than the more recent Agency X crew and that pilot lady everyone’s forgotten about. Those who have wronged him in the past are pretty much all dead, with the exception of Deathtrap and the ever-so-toxic T-Ray. Oh, and there’s always Wolverine.
What Deadpool was going for in the X-Men story appears to be the center of this entire argument. Your take appears that he’s specifically out to become a superhero and be loved by everyone, only to completely go against that plan and screw over his reputation, which you note doesn’t make sense. My take on it is that Deadpool never intended to be loved by the public. He just wanted to be admired, period, while at the same time doing a good deed.
It goes back to his talk with the shark carcass. Deadpool didn’t treat most of his friends like friends. He took from them and rarely gave anything back. What he did for the X-Men is more than he’s ever done for Bob, outside of letting him live for betraying him. He could have been a member of the X-Men, but as it was suggested, he would have just been taking from them and being nothing but a nuisance to be dealt with.
Now? The X-Men — his costumed peers — have some respect for him. At least, they admire him more now than they ever did before, even if the rest of the world doesn’t. And that, in my eyes, is what Deadpool wanted.
As of Spider-Man, we can argue and speculate and talk about Way’s mistakes in writing Spider-Man (why would Spider-Man be so reluctant to believe in Hit-Monkey when he’s fought the Gibbon?), but the bottom line is that the story isn’t over. He seems to be planning something, since the last issue flat out told us that he could have easily ended the story there, but didn’t.
The rest of this argument really looks to be about different strokes for different folks. I think some jokes are funny and work in the story. You don’t. I consider certain situations to be character development. You don’t. I see Deadpool’s behavior and intent in one light. You see it in another light.
Tomato, tomato. Let’s call the whole thing off.
…that doesn’t work so well in type.
@Gavok:
I can sorta see where you’re coming from on the X-men standpoint, but I still say it makes no sense because he wants to be a hero in the eyes of others, not just his own eyes. And again, that’s rehashing old ideas.
To-May-To, To-Mah-To
S’how I usually do it.
Meh, i can understand people having different tastes in jokes/styles/etc all that good stuff. I really can. And even I enjoy mindless fun occasionally. Hell, I get together with friends once in a while to drink and watch Snakes on a Plane.
But when the story drags on for the explicit purpose of making the issues coincide with crossovers, and really, the ending to each one of the arcs so far are macguffins to move Deadpool to the next place they want him to be, it really is bad writing.
From a purely literary standpoint, he’s dragging around, and not even telling a story. There’s a reason it only takes 10 minutes or less to read a Daniel Way written story. There is really nothing going on in there, and the majority of his stuff is dragged out/spread too thin.
There is no buildup, no real conclusion, the closest we get to climaxes are Deadpool’s ‘wacky plans’ coming together, which are getting tedious, and then moving him into place for the next crossover.
Some people don’t mind out of character behavior as much as others. But when a writer is lazy and just throws around a little deus ex machina (he’s crazy now we can do whatever we want) and intentionally makes the character stupid for the sake of laughs, it really sorta pisses on all that continuity.
And I wouldn’t mind *as* much if there was a coherent story like in C&DP. While Nicezia tried to throw in super science, and add his own spin on DP (little of which made sense as cancer doesn’t work the way he tried to sell it), he had a buddy cop routine going on, and an overall story that, even though it centered around cable, was entertaining to read.
Way’s Deadpool book doesn’t have stories. It has little ongoing gags. Little bits of nothing and just real shallow stuff.
I do wish he did things like he did in Origins: a bit more of a focus on dark humor, and Deadpool’s mental state. But he sort of threw that out and went running down the gag factory way. There was a smattering of it with the shark but that went nowhere, just moved him into place with the next crossover.
I really don’t think Way ‘gets’ Deadpool and is just writing whatever wacky stuff he wants. Hell, he doesn’t think Deadpool is really in love with “Death” and that it was a figment of his imagination. He uses Deadpool as an excuse to write wacky stuff.
Without the dark sense of humor, character development in the sense that the character does something new, or learns soemthing about himself, or *FEELS* something or puts an original spin on an old idea. He has done none of that. He’s done old ideas with his gimmick focused bit.
Also: Did Spider-Man ever fight Red Ghost and his super orangutans or was that just the FF?