DC Comics and the War on Alan Moore
June 7th, 2011 by Gavok | Tags: alan moore, batgirl, swamp thingLess than a year ago, Alan Moore went on one of his usual tirades. The kind where he goes on about how he doesn’t read a thing by Marvel or DC, but knows they suck just because. You know the kind.
Yeah, like that.
While ranting about the comic business is part of Moore’s Thursday routine, this instance was different. By this point, the comic industry had taken enough of his bitterness. For one, fellow scary bearded writer Jason Aaron wrote up a big essay on how he once idolized the man, but is now completely over him. DC Comics, meanwhile, seemed to take it just as personally. While they have no problem making money off of Moore’s old classics in trade form, he’s otherwise dead to them. In the past couple months, it seems DC’s making it their business to wipe Moore’s presence from DC continuity.
Sure, he gave us that comic with the naked blue guy and the creepy dude who’d always go, “Hurm.” He gave us that cool Superman story where he was all, “MONGUUUUUUL!” But those stand by themselves. When you look at it, in terms of DC continuity, there are three major impacts Moore has made. Four if you count the Blackest Night hoopla, but that was really just a minor aside that Geoff Johns mutated into something else entirely. Five if you count John Constantine, but let’s face it. There’s no damage DC can do to him that the movie didn’t already.
So what are these three impacts? First, he reinvented Swamp Thing with the shocking twist that the process that created Swamp Thing actually killed Alec Holland. He wasn’t Holland mutated into a pile of vines and moss. He was a pile of vines and moss that believed himself to be Alec Holland. Easily one of the better retcons in fiction history.
Fast forward to the end of Brightest Day.
Alec Holland has been resurrected, transformed into Swamp Thing (for the first time!) and killed the original Swamp Thing for good! Take THAT, Alan Moore!
Back in the mid-80’s, Moore created a brand new Green Lantern like no other. Bolphunga the alien bounty hunter went to a planet to hunt down the legendary Green Lantern Mogo. What he found instead was that Mogo WAS the planet. And so, a staple of the Lantern mythos was born.
The past few years have been pretty major for Mogo. How’s he been doing lately?
Oh, right. Blown up by compassionate soldier John Stewart during War of the Green Lanterns. Take THAT, Alan Moore!
Of course, one of Moore’s most famous works is Killing Joke, where he had the Joker visit Jim Gordon and—
Welp, that one goes without saying. Those legs are working again after all that time. That THAT, Alan Moore!
If I was F-Sharp Bell or Mother Mercy, I’d lock the doors immediately and hide under the bed.
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“How’s he been doing lately?..” Haw!
If modern North American Superhero comics tell us anything about themselves (and they are pretty much all about telling us about themselves at this point) it is that no continuity is forever. Not even Alan Moore’s. Not even the good stuff. That’s how it is. But…
The evidence does pretty much, as you show, point to DC sticking two fingers up at Alan Moore, which is highly amusing in a pathetic way. But not as amusing as the fact that they are doing it while his back is turned. He doesn’t care. Alan Moore doesn’t care what DC do as long as they stop bothering him.
As to That Interview Alan Moore was, it appeared to me, just saying that if all the Top Flight talent in comics were that all that good DC wouldn’t still be bothering him about stuff he did 20 – 30 years ago. He was also saying that maybe they are That Good but the corporate comic environment isn’t letting them prove it. He seemed to me to be actually quite supportive of today’s creators by arguing that if they were left to actually, y’know, be creative, as he had been, then maybe they would come up with something to replace all that stuff DC keeps badgering him about. Okay, he was a bit grumpy (after only a couple of decades of harassment! The big wuss! Man up, Moore!)about it but his basic point seemed quite in favour of the creators. Still, best just to tell him exit while copulating with himself. It’s the only mature response.
Dear DC, you can’t hurt Alan Moore anymore but in trying to do so you can hurt yourself.
Yeah, this hadn’t escaped my attention and I did wonder for a while if someone at DC was really doing this as some kind of payback.
I do think those three recent events are stupid stupid stupid. Swamp Thing is so much more interesting as a plant who thought it was once human than as a human who was turned into a monster. Regardless of all the in-story justifications Geoff Johns came up with, the decision to go back on that makes no sense to me and the character loses most of its appeal for me.
Killing Mogo is of course just a pointless and awful thing to do. I feel the same way about a lot of character deaths.
As for Barbara Gordon walking again… I’m not a big fan of Killing Joke, especially because of the way she was treated in that story. But what’s done is done, and the 20+ years of story that followed turned Barbara Gordon/Oracle into one of my favourite characters and an inspiration for tons of people with disabilities. I am so angry that DC is getting rid of all that. I can’t even put it into words. I think it’s literally the stupidest move they’ve ever done and I’m strongly considering not buying any DC books in September.
But I really hope the reason for these three very awful decisions wasn’t that they wanted to spite Alan Moore. Because (a) I don’t think Alan Moore is really going to care that much, and (b) is it really worth ruining your properties just for the sake of making yourself feel superior to Alan Moore? I don’t think there’s really any explanation or reasoning that can make me think those were good decisions, but I’d like at least hope that they were motivated by something other than this petty vengeance.
The Batgirl one is funny because it’s impossible not to see it as another bird-flip, but it’s also the thing (in an imaginary story where Alan Moore cares about any of this) that’d bother him the least.
Well, heck, if DC’s done with him and he’s done with DC, maybe it’s for the best that Moore’s stuff gets undone/ignored*
They can move on in a no-Moore DCU and do their best to prove him wrong and he doesn’t have to hear about his creations or aspects of his runs on things getting messed with. DC can reboot with the dubious ideas that make up the newest iteration of the DCU and maybe (just maybe) move on to doing something new and exciting.
Yes, yes, I’m a fanboy, too, and am exceedingly doubtful that they will, but heck, maybe something interesting will come out of the rigmarole. Maybe.
Possibly.
I hope.
*Excepting the trades and OGNs featuring Moore’s name in BIG OL’ LETTERS that will probably remain in print for a long damn while.
But yeah, it’s absolutely deliberate, right? Moore calls out Johns for basing 100 years-worth of comics his 8-page Green Lantern story, Johns gets promoted to Daddy DC, says “okay then, we won’t use ANY of your stories, how do you like THAT?!” (Alan Moore proceeds to give not even a single shit.)
I’d love to buy an “Alan Moore was right” t-shirt.
While I have nothing against them getting back at Moore, who hasn’t done anything good in a long time anyway, the way they handled Swamp Thing was so terrible. Now that John is getting folded back into the main DCU too, I wonder if he’ll have anything to do with this Swamp Thing, since he really has no connection to him.
I was unaware of Barbara not being wheelchair-bound anymore, though. Jesus. To be honest, Stephanie is my favorite Batgirl, and I’ve been enjoying her series a lot more than I ever thought I would like a Batgirl series.
IIRC Moore accused DC of purposely screwing over artists he’s worked with, for the express purpose of getting back at Moore over Watchmen. That’s when I jumped ship on that interview.
@D. Druid: Yeah, DC would never do anything so pett-waitWHUUUUUUUUUUUUUT
@James W:
Do you actually believe that DC knowingly took money away from someone’s cancer treatments, from someone who hasn’t worked with Moore in years, for the sole purpose of conducting a mind-war with Alan Moore? And all this AFTER making it clear to Moore directly that Watchmen didn’t need any sort of go-ahead from him? Because that’s what Moore claimed in that interview.
No one seems anywhere near as concerned with Alan Moore as Alan Moore does. DC has plenty of business reasons to be dicks to comics artists.
“DC has plenty of business reasons to be dicks to comics artists.”
It’s all they know to do.
Jason Aaron’s response, like Dan Slott’s from earlier this year, included the phrase ‘Go Fuck Yourself’. Therefore I’m not counting it as an intelligent, dignified argument but an embarrassing bitter fanboy-rant. It doesn’t really contain any real counter-arguments, either; it’s just him railing about how offended he is.
Which, I dunno, sort-of implies that Moore might be right…
@D. Druid: Given the decades-long legal battle that DC waged against Siegel and Shuster’s claims to appropriate compensation for making the DC Universe possible by creating Superman – a battle that was still not settled when Joanne Siegel died earlier this year – I don’t find the concept of DC treating artists who’ve worked with Moore spitefully because they bear a grudge toward Moore nearly as implausible as you.
@super nintendo chalmers:
While I have nothing against them getting back at Moore, who hasn’t done anything good in a long time anyway…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmJh0ie6ffY
Ain’t that a bitch? Masters make masterworx and gotta hear later on why they haven’t done anything lately? Make one thing decent and then proceed to earn the right to talk shit.
As for people who feel that Moore’s implying that DC screwed fellow artists to get at him, this is the company that fkd over three-fourths of their two titans’ creators–Jerry Siegel, Joe Schuster, and Bill Finger. Stop being fanboys and understand that DC hasn’t been beyond that kinda shit and that Alan was stating the facts and explicitly his take on it.
I’m sorry, did you just say to stop acting like a fanboy and then take up for Alan Moore, who hasn’t been in total control of his mind in what seems like years? I’ve bought exactly ONE DC trade in the last year (Generation Lost) that wasn’t a Vertigo book, and I agree 100% with Jason Aaron. This isn’t about fanboyism, it’s about Moore being disconnected from reality. Yes, DC fucks people over sometimes, but most comic book companies have done things they shouldn’t be proud of, and Moore is acting like it’s news and only he knows the truth. Even that would be okay if he wasnn’t shitting on colleagues without taking the time to read their work. Moore is formerly great writer who can’t let go of the fact that DC didn’t go out of their way to do things the way he wanted. He’s had valid points in the past wehn criticizing them, but the stuff he’s said lately sound like the ramblings of a bitter man who can’t handle no longer being the toats of the town.
@Rick Wears Pants:
“Yes, DC fucks people over sometimes,”
Actually, a lot of the time. Have you seen this reboot? They somehow managed to lose new talent instead of gain it.
They managed to even scare away Nick Spencer, who I’m sure as a former politician had to deal with plenty of douchebags.
Moore is not some mean asshole. I’ve never heard a story of him being a jackass in person and he’s still very public in England. But he’s been screwed enough times to stay away from the big two. I don’t understand why that makes him an asshole.
Jason Aaron is a great writer but his rant was not well thought out (I have no idea where he got the idea that the writers were insulted).
Ahhh, this is no big deal. DC’s continuity is theirs, to do what they will with it. It’s probably dumb to walk away from all of the best Swampy stories, but (a) it’s their call and (b) those stories are still on my shelf. I should add (c) which is that it was Geoff Johns who was making so much use of Mogo (and the backstory of Abin Sur’s death) in the first place.
That said, Moore’s not wrong: it’s completely pathetic that a periodical publisher is coasting on the Moore glories of 25 years ago. More generally, as we’ve all seen, the approach with this reboot seems to be to restore the status quo of decades past, though whether that’s the creative staff or the corporation wallowing in nostalgia is hard to know.
@Rick Wears Pants:
“This isn’t about fanboyism, it’s about Moore being disconnected from reality. Yes, DC fucks people over sometimes, but most comic book companies have done things they shouldn’t be proud of, and Moore is acting like it’s news and only he knows the truth.”
I bet the last thing you read by Moore is not at all the last books he’s written. So you’re in no position to call him formerly a great writer, making you an asshat. Moore isn’t acting like only he knows the truth or that DC’s corporate b.s. is news, don’t know where you made that assumption from. Being pissed off about any company screwing people over does not make a man disconnected from reality.
As for the insinuation that Moore hasn’t been in total control of his mind for years:
The worst thing to call somebody is crazy. It’s dismissive. I don’t
understand this person, so they’re crazy. That’s bullshit. Cuz people
are not crazy, they’re strong people. Maybe the environment is a
little sick. ––– Dave Chappelle, 2006
So, he shits on colleagues? They’re not colleagues, they’re successors. He didn’t point to anyone in particular and is just generalizing. Boohoo. First off, few are the works of today that can stand to his best, especially out of corporate comix, so as I’ve said before, if Jordan talks shit about basketball today are we gonna be so eager to behead him? No, because in all walks of life there are those who have actually earned the right to talk shit in the given medium they’ve mastered; you don’t gotta agree but make em a pariah and again you’re an asshat.
I’d actually rather quote the Great One:
And I quote, Know your role and Shut Your Mouth
@Niles Day: I bet the last thing you read by Moore is not at all the last books he’s written. So you’re in no position to call him formerly a great writer, making you an asshat. Moore isn’t acting like only he knows the truth or that DC’s corporate b.s. is news, don’t know where you made that assumption from.
“I’m making assumptions. Stop making assumptions!”
Nice work, Gavok. But honestly Niles, if you wanna point me in the direction of a good comic he’s written since he stopped doing America’s Best Comics, you go right ahead.
Using Dave Chappelle as a benchmark to deflect my comments on Moore’s state of mind is hilarious in light of the fact that Dave was all too happy to mock Mariah Carey and Michael Jackson’s mental health, but the minute he gets mocked in public after making a poor choice himself (as far as public image goes, anyway), he becomes understanding and sage-like.
I like Dave, I even empathized with how he felt about leaving the show, but the way he did it was not rational, and neither is the way Moore is acting. When Moore slags off the entire industry, he is mocking colleagues, because he’s mocking people like Morrison, Ellis, and Millar (to be far, I don’t like Millar’s stuff that much either, but Moore admitted he doesn’t even read anybody’s books, much less Millar’s), who have defended him and discussed their relationship with Moore in the past. I’m not asking Moore to fawn over books, just give them a fair shake.
And finally, quoting The Rock? What does that accomplish, other than making you look like can’t participate in this discussion without using Wikiquote?
I still think people are being unfair to Moore because he’s actually made his living off of comics and now he’s retired. And even though he’s basically retired, people still come and badger him about stuff. Moore doesn’t read current comics. He doesn’t want to. And people come up to ask him about the industry that 1) still makes money off of his name and 2) won’t get passed him.
If you read the interview (and not just the snippests people posted from Bleeding Cool, but the entire thing), you get a sense that Moore’s frustrated that people keep on bringing up stuff he did 30 years ago instead of doing new stuff. He mentions Blackest Night, but he mentions it in the context of “why can’t something new be created.”
http://www.mania.com/alan-moore-reflects-marvelman-part-2_article_117529.html
He’s not being crazy. He’s not being wacko. He’s saying stuff that Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison, and others have been saying for a long time.
And he’s right. The whole DCnU agenda has just been about recreating the old with a nicer look and 10s sensibilities. While this is fine for setting up stuff for new audiences, it does nothing new with any of them. No one is “pulling” an Alan Moore with these characters (by bringing up interesting character twists like Marvelman or Swamp Thing, or even giving us a new take on the archetype like Tom Strong or Promethea).
It is a mashup of old and new and while it sounds new and different for a while, it does not endure like great music.
Moore’s works stands out because it was different and it challenged conventions and the archetypal way of thinking. Johns work does nto because all he ever does is make things conventional and archetypal. One story changes the way you think about all stories (alan moore’s swmap thing), and the other story reboots it to a convenient status quo (johns’ brightest day).
Did Alan Moore create Oracle? No. No he didn’t. The Batgirl thing is less that she gets “unshot” than that she stops being Oracle to be Batgirl. You’re pushing it say this is an UnMoore-ing. Also, dismissing Constantine b/c “the movie already ruined him” is specious. If anything, putting JC in the DCnU at a high profile is a case of bringing more Moore.
@Deco: Cool. Now explain to me the real reasons why the chicken would cross the road.
@Gavok:
Fair enough. Point Gavok. It isn’t recommended to read a comment, get ticked, write a quick retort, and click submit before rereading it. That being said, I assumed he didn’t read Moore’s recent work because he sounded like the typical quick to hate (without any details) comicfans I see everywhere online. And I said, I don’t know where he got his assumption on Moore’s disposition when the interview everyone’s referring to on this thread is online and doesn’t match up with his description at all. Nowhere do I say, don’t assume.
Now back to sir Rickwearspants, I can’t really tell you anything about Moore’s recent post-ABC work (Lost Girls, Dodgem Logic, etc.). My case was that you couldn’t either. And if so, as I said before, neither of us should then talk about the quality of his recent work. Whether or not Chappelle indicted himself with that statement isn’t relevant because the statement remains true. He is attacking the propensity of people to be casually and comfortably dismissive if not demonizing. And you fit right in that niche.
“This isn’t about fanboyism, it’s about Moore being disconnected from reality. Yes, DC fucks people over sometimes, but most comic book companies have done things they shouldn’t be proud of, and Moore is acting like it’s news and only he knows the truth. Even that would be okay if he wasnn’t shitting on colleagues without taking the time to read their work. Moore is formerly great writer who can’t let go of the fact that DC didn’t go out of their way to do things the way he wanted. He’s had valid points in the past wehn criticizing them, but the stuff he’s said lately sound like the ramblings of a bitter man who can’t handle no longer being the toats of the town.”
Saying Moore hasn’t been in control of his mind for years is low. Especially when your evidence is “Moore is acting like it’s news and only he knows the truth.” Reread the interviews, your assessment is off. And as for Moore’s dismissal of the comix industry, we can argue forever about whether or not he’s right or should’ve spoken without reading past solicitations, but either way, it would in no way make him crazy. (Not to mention that I’d find a list of mainstream quality comix–Morrison and a few others I’m surely missing notwithstanding–a more reasonable plea with Moore to stop shitting on current comix. Especially when a lotta top dogs, Millar, Bendis, Johns, really aren’t good.) It only means you don’t like him. So what? Takes a little kid to go like Jason Aaron from I don’t like him to fk him. And then from there to “I’m sorry, did you just say to stop acting like a fanboy and then take up for Alan Moore, who hasn’t been in total control of his mind in what seems like years? …It’s about Moore being disconnected from reality.” Fanboys jump quite easily.
As for thinking that anyone would need wikiquote to quote the Great One, I can’t help you.
I can’t read Jason Aaron’s comics because of his “fuck you Alan Moore” rant. I just can’t. The funny thing about it is how Aaron acts like a scorned son and Moore has given no indication that he even knows who Jason Aaron is.
Moore was, is, and continues to be right. DC fucked him over and the fanboys try to silence him and call him “crazy” for standing up for himself and his beliefs. Classless, comic fans. Totally classless.
But the thing is, though, Darryl, even though it’s true that DC fucked Alan Moore over, it doesn’t mean he’s right about everything. Some of his points he made in that interview were completely not valid and showed a really poor understanding of how shared-universe superhero comics work, which is that stories build on previous continuity. That’s always been the case and it continues to be part of the appeal, for both creators and readers. Alan Moore’s DCU stories did the same thing, and Watchmen was based on previously existing characters. So it seems absurd for him to call current DC writers creatively bankrupt for building upon previously established continuity. That’s just what comic book writers do!
I do agree that fans tend to have knee-jerk reactions to everything he says, and dismissing him as “crazy” doesn’t solve anything. And as much as I disagreed about some of what Moors said in the interview, I thought Jason Aaron’s reply was patently absurd and he came across as whiny and clueless. But that wouldn’t stop me from reading his comics. Scalped sounds pretty amazing and I’ve been meaning to check it out for a while.
I don’t know. I think it’s just as knee-jerky and fanboyish to take everything Alan Moore says as gospel and to refuse to read authors who happen to disagree with him.
@Basque: Well with regards to the Aaron controversy I feel pretty strongly that Moore was right. The arrogance of Aaron, the leap in logic needed to make another man’s personal grievance against the industry into a specific assault on himself…it’s delusional at best.
I dunno; Aaron’s rampage just came across really creepy and desperate to me.
Moore was dumb for what he said, which only has any remote basis in fact if you are a snob among snobs, and for continuing to say it in public when debunking his stupid statements is simple.
Aaron was stupid for taking what Moore said personally, when it’s clear that Moore hasn’t read anything mainstream in years. Sure, Moore was taking shots at Aaron by default, and he might have thought that warranted a response, but I don’t think it was at all necessary or a wise move. I don’t think it’s creepy or desperate, either.
Moore’s not a good enough writer to have everything he says taken as gospel, either.
@david brothers:
What exactly was he dumb for? The insinuations of nth degree foul play based on his experiences or throwing generalizations around on the quality of mainstream comix writers? I don’t think at their worst, either are dumb. Other words not dumb. Regardless, when you say his stupid statements are easily debunked, which are you referring to? I’m at a loss.
And just so I could get a gauge, I know not everything he’s written is a masterpiece, but I’d laud Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Promethea, and From Hell to the bone. Some of the best work I’ve experienced. One of these alone is stature in my eyes, let alone four. Now we could have a discussion on whether or not we agree, but this doesn’t look like the thread for that and I only bring it up to ask, if Moore’s not a good enough writer, who is?
“Now we could have a discussion on whether or not we agree, but this doesn’t look like the thread for that and I only bring it up to ask, if Moore’s not a good enough writer, who is?”
Nobody.
It’s obvious that DC has screwed (or behaved with bad faith toward, or whatever whatever) Alan Moore. He has plenty of legitimate gripes with them. I don’t know that I can believe that DC is willing to let someone get sick and die over that beef, because that is cartoonishly evil. My sticking point is with his comments on the industry. I think that this:
is largely garbage, borne out of a wish to be provocative and mean to the industry that hurt him. He’s setting himself up as the greatest writer that ever did it at the expense of all the other creators involved in comics. Saying that no one has made a work as good as Watchmen is absurd and betrays a stunning lack of information on the modern comics industry.
Watchmen is notable because it arrived at the perfect time for it to become a high watermark, and early enough that people could repeatedly point to it as being such. It’s a pretty great piece of craft from both Moore and Gibbons, but by no means the greatest comic of all time. To be honest, it’s probably not even on the top 10, 15, 25 comics I’d recommend to somebody just getting into comics. I’m far from an Alan Moore hater, too. I can respect the craft. But I’d recommend Top Ten before Watchmen.
What he said was dumb. He was speaking from a position of profound ignorance.
@Prodigal:
Your analogy makes no sense. No one is arguing that DC is nice to artists.
Like I already said, DC has tons of business reasons for being dicks to artists (your post is a perfect illustration of my point, so thanks).
The deal with Alan Moore is that he’s self-centered enough to believe that when DC pulls work from an artist that Alan Moore worked with years ago, it’s somehow a personal act of spite against Alan Moore.
@Niles Day:
Once again: no one is saying that DC is nice to artists. DC is very mean to artists when they have something to gain, that is, intellectual property. You gave excellent examples of how DC has its own selfish reasons for fighting artists, such as their most valuable intellectual properties, Superman and Batman.
The part that makes me laugh is when ALAN MOORE accuses DC of an evil game of Telephone where they pull work from artists to send secret mind messages to ALAN MOORE because they’re mad at ALAN MOORE about ALAN MOORE.
@david brothers:
I’ll admit your answer on no one being a good enough writer made me laugh like a kid who got caught. Bit on you saying Moore wasn’t good enough implied someone was. Anyways, I agree with your look on Moore’s comments, but as I said before I’m just not as vitriolic towards him not just because I don’t believe most mainstream comix talent to be quality which I thought was the group he was referring to but because I stand by the idea of certain folk earning their right to talk shit about the given profession they’ve mastered. Again, not saying they’re right, that their comments are gospel or exempt from criticism, but I’m not gonna hate. Especially the hate I’ve seen following that interview.
As for everyone laughing off Moore’s insinuations that DC is acting cartoonishly evil– just because it sounds ridiculous doesn’t mean laughing at it makes it true or false. Everyone insists on talking about it, belittling it, or at worst questioning his sanity, when as I’ve said before, they aren’t in a position to. You think Moore’s ego commandeered his take on the events, then go find out whether or not what he purported as facts were true, whether DC did what they did, how foul have they been in the past, etc. He believed there was foul play but he doesn’t call that belief fact. I just want people to know before they speak. I don’t know so I’ll keep my opinion to myself instead of instigating. Yes, it’s the internet but I still expect more.
Now Brothers, if I could pry your mind for a sec, what’s your take on the top 10 or 20 comix? (My suggestion for your next article) And 2ndly, everybody’s got a pull list which they generalize the entire Marvel/DC share of the industry from. And off my lackluster/disappointing reads alongside reads on reviews and so forth, I’m still hard-pressed to think who in the game I’m supposed to vehemently defend/be offended for from Moore’s comments. Clearly Morrison, Brubaker (few years back), heard Jeff Parker’s doing his thing, Spencer. But who’s taken any of the familiar toys and ran with it to a point (I got my own take on Shed and grim hunt) where we gotta stop the presses? It’s always been the exception not the rule. Unless I’m just a malnourished mainstream comix reader.
My personal theory is that Geoff Johns is taking a page out of Grant Morrison’s book, and trying to kill Alan Moore via a magic spell cast via text. It’s some kind of magical comic-book war.